Sam 'the Man' Gaskin:
Livin' to Draw, Drawin' to Live

Some cartoonists just do it -- draw. Always. Like a shark, forever swimming to keep breathing, to keep the water flowing over the gills. Hence, pioneer CCS graduate Sam (aka Tito the Shark) draws, day in, day out, and remains an inspiration to us all here at CCS.

Well, OK, he also makes music. And eats. And sleeps. And does other stuff, too. Read, for instance. Watch TV.

But mainly, I saw Sam draw for two years. I know the top of his head better than his mug; he was always drawing.

Sam also won a coveted Xeric Award this spring -- the second CCSer to do so, on the heels of his classmate and fellow 2007 grad Alexis Frederick-Frost (to be interviewed here, too, this coming week).

Need I say more? Let's get Sam talking instead.
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Sam in Montreal, 2006 (Photo: Joe Lambert)

Sam Gaskin
Pizza (and comics) Wizard

SB: What's your background, Sam?

SAM GASKIN: Okay, well, I've lived in Holden, Massachusetts my whole life really. It's the epitome of suburbia and I live right next door to the high school, so you can imagine. No kids lived near me, so I spent a lot of quality time with TV, which probably explains a lot of things about me. Naturally, growing up I was a bored kid, so friends and I would end up hitting soda cans with baseball bats, throwing computer monitors out of moving cars, etc. I slept through a large part of school, even the one year at Fitchburg State College I attended. I would go for the sake of going, being told it was necessary. I always knew I wanted to get into some sort of media, I was just having a lot of trouble choosing. Film required too much interpersonal work, my writing was too cheesy, I didn't understand most computer programs, what else could I do?

"Thank God for Evan Dorkin!"

SB: When did you first get into reading comics?

SAM: Of course, I've been reading comics since I can remember, lots of newspaper strips: Calvin & Hobbes, The Far Side, Fox Trot, Bloom County, even Garfield! I never really got into the newsstand floppies, it all looked the same to me, and it didn't make me laugh, except for Sonic the Hedgehog (which I should mention is one of things that unifies [fellow CCSer] Dane Martin and myself)! Something about the feeling of reading a video game really caught me then, and I bet you can read that in my stuff now, even though I don't really play them anymore. Who knows how this stuff affected me, man. And then there was that fateful day in fourth grade when my Mom bought me my first issue of Mad magazine. I brought that thing to school every day and read it during silent reading time, over and over and over! I still have it, even though the cover is sort of falling off. From then on, I got every single issue, every super special, every reprint, for Cracked too! I couldn't get enough of that stuff. Eventually, late in high school, I found my way into the comics shop and discovered the (for lack of a better term) "indie" stuff, but there's hardly anything behind that. I'll sum it up in five words, thank god for Evan Dorkin!

SB: Milk and Cheese, Dork, and so on -- Evan’s stuff is great. Let’s talk about your earlier comics work. What was your first comic or minicomic?

The modest cover for Trek (2006)

SAM: I did little stuff, like one pagers and things all through childhood, but I guess my real first project was Trek, which was wholly inspired by Mat Brinkman. It's a 45-page story I drew in 2004 as a drawing project for Fitchburg State about two monsters looking for the home of this magic crystal. I improvised the whole thing, never penciled, and drew it entirely in Sharpie. I was really obsessed with the Fort Thunder guys for a long time, that first issue of Paper Rodeo was just like the first issue of Mad, I seriously carried it everywhere. I especially loved Mat probably because of the adventure and the humor. When I did Trek, I basically ripped off Multi-Force in entirety.

SB: What led you to becoming part of the first-ever class at CCS?

SAM: My parents brought home an article in the Boston Globe about the school, the one with James, Ana Merino, and I think Art Spiegelman all standing in the Colodny space. I don't remember if I read the whole thing before I hit the web to learn more. I knew that this was something I wanted to do, no doubts in my mind. I would make my parents happy by going to college, and I would actually learn something that I cared about and would stay awake for... mostly (there were some late nights, man!).

Pure inspiration: Paper Rodeo #18 cover art by Ron Rege

SB: You arrived at CCS with a strong affinity with Paper Rodeo and Fort Thunder’s guerrilla creative work, their comics and music coalitions. Care to talk about those a bit more, Sam, and your experience with that body of work? There doesn't seem to be much of anything on line or in print about them...

SAM: Here are some links and images, Steve. There's never been an official website for this stuff, so whatever you can find, that's it, I guess!

Here's an article about Paper Rodeo ending...

Here's a random Mat Brinkman panel [from Expo 2000]

Here's the cover from Kramers Ergot #4...

... and the Teratoid Heights cover.

Paper Rodeo was funny in this great way that no one signed any of their work, so I can still go back and look at certain parts and be like "oh, I know who did that now!"

SB: Do you feel part of that scene, or outside of it, as a successor?

Paper Rodeo installation invitation 'logo thingie'

SAM: Even though I got a drawing into the last issue, I am in no way part of that, as badly as I want to be, as badly as a lot of people want to be, we all missed the boat. Everything about the residual Fort Thunder concept is weird, Tom Devlin and I were joking about all the misconceptions there are about it, like that he and Ben Jones lived there and stayed up all night playing Nintendo and hacky-sack. Now, there are tons of people who are weaseling their way into art galleries with really busy marker drawings or something equally uninspired. It's sort of like watching reruns; yeah, they look nice, but I've seen them all before and it's the same old tricks. I think they were a really great archetype for friends getting together and inspiring each other and just exploding everywhere, but too many individuals are just copy-catting them at this point. The art world is another can of worms though, I won't get into that. Tom knows though, I had a lot of trouble letting go of that and really making my own comics, not comics that look like others. He really pushed me, and I love him for it (you hear me, mister!). He gave me this weird analogy with something about Ska bands, it was really great. So I don't know if I would say that I'm a successor, but it's definitely made a huge impact on what I do now of course. I mean, I've met a few of those guys, and we're friends and all... I guess I just feel that I relate to people like that more, like I'm not going to be hanging out with Adrian Tomine any time soon, you know? I don't want to sit in my own camp by myself, I want to see my friends work, it excites and motivates me. Did that make sense? Was that coherent? Did I even answer the question?

Photo: Lightning Bolt, one of Sam's fave bands

SB: You most certainly did! What’s your own music like, Sam, and how does that crossover into your comics work?

SAM: Music is weird. I start a new band with myself every week, I'm not sure if it's something I'll ever be able to pursue in any sort of "professional" way, you know, like actually recording songs or touring, I’m never satisfied with what I’m doing. Most of the time though, the idea is showmanship over musicianship, I want people to go to a show and have fun. This usually involves me running around the room or breaking things. Lights, fog, I got it all, man. I guess Pizza Wizard kind of relates because I'm trying to create this big world with lush environments, so it's sort of the same showoff "look at me" idea, that's one way to interpret it, I suppose. Haha, well, I hate to say it, I guess that's a Fort Thunder thing too sort of, wearing lots of hats. I'm doing this new thing, I taped a microphone to my bass drum and put it through effects, so it's sort of like automated accompaniment when I play. I think it would help if I had someone to be in a band with, but so far that hasn't worked out.

Photo: Another fave of Sam's, Lucky Dragons

Listening to music is really important to the process though, it's one of the most inspiring things, it really helps me open my mind when I'm drawing. Either that or TV. When I'm drawing Sugarcube, I'll watch Freaks & Geeks, but when I draw Pizza Wizard, it's got to be music, mostly spazzy, rock stuff like Lightning Bolt, Hella, or Lucky Dragons.

I’m also into this band, Noise Nomads, right now which is this guy, Jeff Hartford, from Western Massachusetts. Check him out, total trash sound, I love it. Again, that's the reason I put ads for record labels and things in Pizza Wizard, I'm excited about what others are doing, so I want to help them out, and I want to hear more!

Photo: Hey, fella, it's Hella!

That's a good joke my friend

Jacob Berendes, junk man extraordinaire,

told me, "What? You're in a noise band? Where's your mask?" Jacob runs Happy Birthday Mike Leslie, a junk store in Worcester, MA that sells homemade zines, music, clothes, toys, movies, and tons of other great stuff. It's like walking into Pee-Wee's Playhouse. I volunteer to help out there at least once a week.

Friend and blood brother Ben McOsker runs Load Records,

which I did an ad for. He puts out really incredible stuff. Check out the new Silver Daggers album, new high & ord, featuring Gary Panter cover art!

SB: OK, let’s get into your comics, Sam. Before Pizza Wizard emerged, you were working on an expansive narrative that you began in 2006 and intended as your thesis project -- what was that, and will it see light of day?

SAM: Oh, that thing, um... definitely maybe. I keep getting new ideas all the time and I can't even get them down on paper fast enough, and I have this new thing that I'm really excited about, so I might just keep it on the shelf for now. Who knows, maybe in ten years I'll have a real intense dry spell and it will be the perfect thing to pick up again. I'll keep it in a dark place for now, but I'll give it plant food, just enough to keep it alive, but not to grow. I've got plenty going on though, don't worry about that!

SB: I love Faux Pas. When did you start those, and how many have there been to date? Tell us about ‘em...

Faux-Pas #4 (2006)

SAM: The first Faux-Pas was my final project for first semester last year. It has a really nice cover and will hopefully never be seen by anyone ever again. There are too many embarrassing things I had to include per whatever requirements there were for the project. There are four total and I'm hoping to have a fifth in time for SPX, and then they should be collected next year. It's really just been an outlet for me to mix all the little things I do together, jokes and things that shouldn't go beyond a few pages, short stories, funny sketchbook pages, as much variation as possible.

SB: You’ve done a lot of those short parody pieces and single-pagers goofing on the pop culture: TV shows, Spiderman and so on. Where have those seen print?

SAM: So far, they're only in my zines. Some of them might be in the next Unicorn Mountain, if I ever remember to mail it out. I guess I've been kind of negligent on that... I have a very guilty look on my face right now

SB: What’s Unicorn Mountain?

SAM: Unicorn Mountain is a weird, square anthology

edited by this guy, Curt Gettman, that features lots of new and upcoming artists, as well as fiction writing, articles, and a CD sampler of new music. It was weird how I came to meet Curt, I was just waltzing past their table at SPX and he locked eyes with me, walked over, and said "hey, have you seen the track listing for our CD?", which was so bizarre because I could not figure out how this guy knew just from looking at me that I liked bands like the USAisaMonster and Coachwhips. It's pretty cool, I really look forward to seeing how it's going to develop with each issue.

Joe Lambert cover art for the Face Book, Graduation Edition (May, 2007); this was the second publication of the Face Book, which was the CCS pioneer graduate class's 'yearbook'.

SB: What’s the Face Book?

SAM: Haha, okay, so I drew this one picture of Rich Tommaso by tracing a photograph, which by my hand made him look completely wonky and and nutty. Everyone in the class seemed to really like it for some reason, so James and Michelle commissioned me to draw everyone in the class as a sort of yearbook. Joe Lambert did a really nice job packaging it to give out at graduation, a real nice color cover for a bunch of kooky looking caricatures. No one complained, so I guess I did something right.

SB: Hey, I love it, hence my question. What’s your latest comic creation?

SAM: Okay, so there's Pizza Wizard, right? As if he hasn't weaseled his way into the blog world enough already! Put simply, it is about a tiny wizard looking for magic pizza. Why? Your guess is as good as mine. This is the full-on manifestation of all those comic strips and cartoons and bad jokes and action figures and Magic cards and rock music and everything else that's made me who I am today and I am so, so sorry. Issue #1 premieres at MoCCA and issue #2 is say, 1/8 finished. By Christmas, maybe? There will also be a collection of my Faux-Pas series of mini-comics come next year, and another book sometime later called Sugarcube which is a sort of coming-of-age story (another thing I'm a sucker for), and then something else which I'm not gonna talk about here (top secret for now!).


SB: Where did Pizza Wizard come from? I still fondly remember the class crit when you shared that first single-page Pizza Wizard with us, and everyone fell in love with it.

SAM: Should I reveal that already? Maybe I should keep it a secret for a while. I guess I'll tell. So when I was doing the original copy of the CCS Facebook, there was a picture of [CCS co-founder] Michelle Ollie with a quote underneath that said "who wants pizza?", because seriously, man, she was always getting us free pizza, it was awesome. When she saw this, she said, "What am I, the pizza wizard?" Basically, bells went off in my head that this was the greatest title I had ever heard in my life and that I had to start drawing it immediately. I mean, do you know anyone who doesn't like pizza? There's a whole theory behind the unification powers of pizza, but I won't get into that now. And wizards are just cool. It quickly evolved into this thing that allowed me to draw the most fun things imaginable, castles and monsters, and the characters came easy because I actually built most of them.

"Put Butts Here": Sam, following instructions outside of Sweetie's, Marlboro VT, 2006 (Photo: Joe Lambert)

SB: Pizza Wizard landed you a Xeric grant. What was that process like, and when did this all go down?

SAM: I really didn't expect to win that at all. I applied before for Trek and didn't get it, I talked to a lot of people who applied a lot of times, and this time I only sent them the first 16 pages, so I was really surprised. It was actually pretty easy to do, I don't have any money or assets or anything like that, so filling out the paperwork was no problem, and doing something short and cheap made getting a printer much easier. Actually getting a response from a book printer is a real pain. My friends Barry and Leon in New York helped me through the process too, more than I can ever thank them for.

SB: Pizza Wizard involved -- involves -- you working essentially in a different style every single page. Each is its own universe: there's fresh logo and title lettering design every page, a different rendering style and drawing challenge each page, and so on. What prompted you to push yourself so extensively, and in the scope of one mercurial venture?

SAM: I don't really know what prompted that, I guess I just wanted to challenge myself to play with layout and to be a better designer, figuring out the title location and font is actually one of my favorite parts. Maybe I was reading too much Acme Novelty or something, but I knew I wanted things to be big and individual, like Gasoline Alley sundays or Little Nemo. Not that I'm comparing my work to any of those things, my output and draftsmanship are deplorable next to them.


SB: You also based some of the creatures and characters in Pizza Wizard on these fusion 'mutant toys' you create at your leisure. What's that all about, how long have you been doing it, and are the plastic fumes fucking you up, Sam?

SAM: What? Who are you again? No, if anything is fucking me up, it's the solder I've been inhaling since I took up circuit-bending. I've been making the action figures for probably a year now, my friend Danny and I started after seeing some of the ones Jacob Berendes had made. It was it's own thing at first, but now it helps out a lot, totally eliminates the need to come up with new, disposable characters. I just go over to the shelf and pick one out. It's nice, I'd like to have a gallery eventually, maybe once I have a hundred or so.

This pic needs another caption like Sam needs an extra asshole, but this is the only place I could link to Jacob's blog! Click and enjoy!

SB: With the Xeric grant in hand, you could have published Pizza Wizard in a grander format. Why the low-tech newsprint format, Sam? -- it's a consistent aesthetic in all your published work thus far.

SAM: I just figured that if it's sort of like a newspaper comic, why not make it a newspaper? I really like that format too, it's cheap to print, and it's sort of become it's own art object in a way. My first priority at this point is to make it accessible to as many people as possible. Plus, it's big! It would be so difficult to deal with a regular printer for a special project like that. I guess it comes back to the Paper Rodeo thing too, except this one's alllllll mine, baby.

Sam, Cigar, CCS: Graduation Day, May 2007 (Photo: Joe Lambert)

SB: You just wrapped up two years at CCS and graduated with flying colors. Do you feel part of a community now, and if so, what is it?

SAM: I definitely feel like I'm deep into the community of all cartoonists. I don't know about our class, only time will tell there. It'll be interesting to see who's still drawing in a few years. That's a can of worms that should probably stay closed, all the weird relationships that our class had, I probably have half my facts wrong on that anyway. Comics is a community in itself though, I'll leave it at that. Also, Dane Martin, please e-mail me.

SB: Dane, follow up! Sam, is there anything you absolutely would not do in comics? Where are your personal boundaries and parameters circa 2007?

SAM: Probably not. I mean, I won't draw any religious extremist pamphlets or anything that promotes hate or anything like that, but otherwise, I'd do anything. I would draw for DC or Big Boy or anything. I don't know if I'd get bored doing those things, but none of them will ever hire me anyway, so I guess it's a moot point.

SB: If there were no obstacles, no inhibitions in terms of time, money, types of media or mergers of media and so on -- what would you be doing creatively, Sam?

SAM: There aren't really any of those things right now, actually! I don't have a job, no real expenses, I'm free to work on all my different projects all day long most of the time. I mean, if I had more money and access, maybe I'd start a television or radio show or record label or something like that. But otherwise, I'm pretty content.

SB: Then you’re a doubly-blessed man, Sam. Great talking to you, thanks for sharing!

__________________________

“Don't be smackin' my face! It's where I keep my good looks!”

Like The Sopranos final episode, visiting the I Know Joe Kimpel site just now to buy Sam's work is a frustrating experience -- it's all sold out! But keep an eye out there, hopefully Sam will be selling Pizza Wizard via I Know Joe Kimpel -- right, Sam?

More tomorrow, with someone else who is highly entertaining--

Have a great Wednesday, one and all!

Gabbing with Gabby: The Livin' End!
Part Five (and Final) of the Gabby Schulz aka Ken Dahl Interview

Photo: You can write & draw anything you want about cats; they'll still love ya. Photo compliments of Josie Whitmore.

Well, all good things must end -- and that includes this interview.

I'll be jawing and drinking with Gabby next week, but you won't. It's the end of the road, folks, and I hope you enjoyed the visit. Last call.

More on Monsters (see yesterday’s interview installment for context, if you’re just joining us today), the risks of spilling the beans in pen, brush and ink, life in 2007, The Center for Cartoon Studies scene and a wrap-up to our conversation follows.

If you’ve enjoyed what you’ve seen and read here, be sure to order some of Gabby's comics, here.

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SB: You go through great pains in the text pages of Monsters #2 to distance the comics from any real persons or events in your past, or any adherence to specific people, places or events. This isn’t something I noticed in your earlier comics. Has the more intimate -- in terms of sexuality -- nature of Monsters been problematic for you, in terms of feedback from friends, etc.?

GABBY: According to some people, I'm still making Monsters way, way too close to reality for their comfort. I really need to go back and make sure that there's no possible way anyone can mistake any of the characters in the comic for anyone they know. So the intimate stuff is a bit problematic, yeah -- mostly because my own story involves other people who might not be as much in the mood for confession as I am. Most of that is just my fault; when I was drawing the first issue of Monsters, like I said, I had no idea that anyone was going to actually read it. So I was a lot less concerned with making “all resemblances to people and places living or dead purely coincidental” than I probably should have been.

And writing Monsters also forced me into a private debate over the strengths and risks of drawing autobio comics, too -- I worried that if a story became too fictional, it would lose the whole impact of the story. I didn't want to lose that voyeuristic, Real Story quality that makes autobio comics like I Never Liked You, Epileptic, or My New York Diary so engrossing (and gross). I wanted to make sure people reading the comic really knew that everything in Monsters was at least possible, that it could happen to them too -- that anyone could put themselves in the shoes of the characters, and not just write them off as gross or stupid or slutty. I was also afraid that, if I didn't ground it in autobio, some parts of my story might seem so over the top that people would write it off as fantasy, or metaphor.

It's actually really frustrating to me that I couldn't write out the full story of what happened during the first two issues -- since the reality of it was so, so much worse and more awful than what I write about in the comic. I had to cut out everything about my mother's death, for example, which came immediately before finding out about the herpes, and made things exponentially harder and more insane at the time. But at some point I decided I needed to focus on just the herpes, and save the other stuff for another, even more miserable comic book.

But I guess really what you're asking is whether it was hard for me to draw and self-publish a comic book that basically screams I have herpes!!!... yeah, it was a bit uncomfortable, even for a masochist like myself -- only because I didn't want anyone to think I was, you know, totally stoked about it or anything.

SB: To understate the obvious -- clearly, it sucks, that comes through loud and clear. I know folks who’ve struggled with it for decades -- it usually provokes the reaction, “There but for the grace of God go I,” unless one is a moralistic prick who considers such infections punitive in nature, which is utterly stupid, but sums up the knee-jerk reaction many still harbor towards AIDS and STDs in general.

GABBY: I guess part of my motivation for drawing and publishing the books in the first place was to force me to "get over" having this virus, and to force other people to get over it too. A couple of my friends at the time when I was first trying to cope with having herpes were really strong women who made it a point of being vocal about their having HPV, which is genital warts. Their talking about it in public seemed to have this magical effect on other people, including me; suddenly it was OK, not an issue, not anything gross or sordid or shameful. And that made me realize that the people who talk about herpes like its gross or disgusting or a big deal are the people who don't actually know much about herpes, and are still ignorant enough to assume they don't actually know anyone that has it -- when, statistically, it's more likely that they already have it themselves! So idiots create the stigma... and, from my personal experience, it seems like most of us are idiots -- about herpes, anyway.

"Ew, grody" people, look away: Monsters #2, 2007

But I also noticed, from watching how my friends with HPV influenced our other friends, that these same ignorant "ew grody" people all generally take their cues about STDs from people who DO have STDs. So if you act ashamed or disgusted about your virus, other people are going to follow your lead, because what the hell do they know about it anyway? So if you can get it together to just get over all that bullshit and treat it like any other innocuous disease or virus, people generally follow suit with that too. (Plus, if they keep being assholes about it anyway, you're now allowed to fuck with them by threatening to spit in their drinks.)

I know it's fucked up that it has to work that way, and it's a lot harder than it sounds to just "get over it." It's not right that people with the disease are also forced to correct everyone else's cruel ignorance about it; but I just don't see anybody else bothering. And forcing myself to come out of the closet about herpes was literally the only thing that kept me from killing myself over the initial shame and disgust, and allowed me to see it for what it was: just a fucking skin rash.

The irony of all this is, it turns out that I might not even have herpes myself -- but I don't want to ruin too much of the ending of Monsters.

Good lord, I'm sorry for going off about this. I guess it's obvious by now that this has become my favorite topic of conversation. The short answer to all that is that drawing Monsters is just a way to force myself to deal with something I couldn't have dealt with otherwise. And that worked really well. Too well, actually, as people have started treating me like some kind of authority on herpes (which I'm not!). People are always asking me questions about what's contagious and what's not; what's safe to do sexually; what the different strains are about; how to talk to other people about having it. These are all things everyone in a just world would have been taught in grade school.

Also, dozens of people have told me things about their own STDs that they've never told anyone else before. There's so many people with herpes walking around, and most of us are too embarrassed to say anything about it. So it feels good to help with that, in a way I never thought would be possible and in fact seems kind of absurd. But I guess it's a good deal for me, since as long as there's STDs there'll always be an audience for my ridiculous little comic book.

From Monsters #2, 2007

SB: Actually, The Comics Journal said Monsters is

“A must-read for anyone with genitalia,”

so I reckon you’ve got a species-wide guaranteed audience. You've gone from a creator of confessional comics to a Father Confessor for STDs?

GABBY: Yeah... it's all very Catholic. I've gone from having stigma to having stigmata.

SB: The first two issues of Monsters clearly present stages of your own process, which is almost like the stages of grieving. The excruciating exchanges between 'Ken' and his girlfriend in #2 are really agonizing reading, you perfectly captured the nuances of such dynamics: the clumsy word choices resonating with blame, maladroit verbalization of confusion and ignorance inherently skirting any culpability for the situation, and so on. This is tough stuff, Gabby.

GABBY: Yeah... it was really hard to draw. I mean I literally spent most of the time at the drawing table not actually drawing but just sulking, paralyzed over how to plot out these miserable interactions. To draw something out well I have to mull over every little tiny part of it, every hand gesture and sweat-bead -- so when I'm drawing traumatic or depressing situations it can be just a huge bummer. I'm glad it sort of came through, and didn't just come off as ridiculous -- although part of it should be a little ridiculous too, I guess. But I think for my next comic I'm going to draw something about hugging puppies on a sunny day outside a chocolate castle. On vicodin.

SB: Let's get into some technical storytelling and graphic decisions: there's a careful pacing in both issues I love. In #2, it's shaped by the shift from a predominate four-panel grid to the accelerated nine-panel grid (on pages 24-25) as events push 'Ken' toward dropping his guard and risking intimacy again. Was this predetermined, or did it just emerge as you drew that sequence?

GABBY: I think I regretted the square, four-panel format just a few pages into the first issue, after I found out how restricting it is, and how hard it is to build up momentum on a mood with just four panels. I would switch to the nine-panel grid when I wanted things to flow a little faster... to suddenly hurry up the reader with the smaller panels, so they'll feel like they're being rushed a bit, in places that I thought that would be appropriate (like with the rollercoaster, or when 'Ken' is drunk and suddenly making out with someone). But from all this drawing in a square, I sure have a new appreciation for the versatility of the nice, long rectangle.

OK, enough on herpes: Gabby, "Why Do I Care?," 2006.

SB: Your basic drawing has evolved tremendously. Your observational skills are formidable in the day-to-day details. The body language between your characters read/feel/look true, but you bring the same chops to bear on the more fantastic elements: the herpes critters, in all their various incarnations; Herpesland; the dream landscapes. It's all of a piece. Is that flowing easily for you these days, or do you agonize over those imaginative elements, too?

GABBY: Hey uh, thanks. I really enjoy drawing the imaginative stuff. As for getting better at drawing in general, you know what helped the most? The realization that someone other than me was actually reading my comics. After Monsters #1 got all that attention, I got scared straight about drawing -- that is, I figured that if people were actually reading it, I should actually bother to, you know, draw elbows right for once in my life. I think for most of my life it's been hard to justify going whole-hog into drawing comics because there was just no possible way I could make a living off of it. And because if it wasn't making any money, it was just a waste of time that could have been better spent doing something to make my rent. What gives me the right to draw funny widdle cartoons, when the rest of the world is busting their ass just to catch up with their credit-card debt?

The Ignatz thing: Ken "Gabby" Dahl with his Ignatz Award -- "The Brick" -- at the Small Press Expo (SPX), October 2006 (photo from Greg Means & Tugboat Press)

But now I guess I'm trapped, since after the Ignatz and The Comics Journal thing I would feel like if I stopped drawing, or only drew crappily, I would be an even bigger asshole and failure than ever. I don't know. I have no idea how the hell to talk about drawing cartoons. It just sorta happens and then afterwards either people like it or they don't; the truth is I have no idea what I'm doing, or what looks good or bad. I can never guess what other people are going to think about it. I keep reminding myself of that Jackie Gleason line though, that goes something like, "Talent doesn't ask, 'will they like it?' Talent says, 'I like it.'" Pretty big-headed, but it seems to work -- at least for people who don't have terrible taste in comics.

But you know what else really helped my drawing a lot? Not having a job. The last time I worked anything over an 8-hour work week was in 2005. I've spent over a year now basically living out of a truck and spending all day and night drawing and sitting in parks thinking about drawing comics. And being unemployed freed me up to take the Fellowship at CCS, too, which couldn't have possibly hurt my drawing "skills." So I think unemployment has really done me right, even when you factor in the abject poverty and chronic periodontal disease.

On the other hand, I'm broke as a dead-baby joke now, so I fear my days of beer and roses will soon come to an end -- as will the new comics -- as I plunge back into that big Barrel o' Shitjob.

Babes He'll Never Have:

another page from "Why Do I Care?," 2006

SB: College is about providing that kind of environmental bubble environment, really. Well, I want to back up a bit and get into something else about this current body of work. Gabby, what kicked the puppy over the mountain three years ago?

GABBY: Oh, you know: getting dumped.

SB: Hah! That’s what prompted me to get going on Tyrant! Sorry, I guess I essentially asked about this earlier in another way. But I’ve got to ask if there’s more to it --

GABBY: I don't know if this is true for a lot of cartoonists, but I really, really need to be totally alone to be productive. Not just physically alone but, like, "psychically" alone too. Because when it really comes down to it, there's a thousand things I'd rather be doing than laboring over comics. I suppose if I were more disciplined, I could set up some kind of regimen for drawing that still allowed me to have time for a relationship and (shudder) a full-time job. But the truth is, I am just so fucking lazy and unfocused that if I am given any reason whatsoever to step away from the drawing table, I'll probably take it. So if I'm living with someone and they're watching a cool movie in the next room, or going out with friends to a bar, or making pancakes, I'm not going to be able to resist joining them.

It's also hard for me to be really close to anyone while I'm working on comics, since it feels like there's someone else in my brain. I'm too easily influenced by other peoples' opinions, especially people that I respect -- and that usually makes me self-conscious when I'm drawing. I need to be a brain in a jar in a dark basement while I'm working on a comic book -- free to obsess over the most stupidest, lamest, most depraved and inappropriate things I please, without the feeling that I'm being judged or put on display. The idea that someone I'm living with might come across some pencils I drew of a naked person is just abhorrent to me. There's nothing a voyeur hates more than being observed himself. That's basically why I stopped drawing comics from 2000-2004 -- I was involved with an extremely PC person, and I didn't want to freak her or any of her friends out. Not that anything I’m drawing is so reprehensible -- but the idea that it might be, to someone, is enough to shut off the tap.

So I guess I just can't win. On one hand, the lonesome cartooning life is perfectly suited to my disposition, and I really enjoy being alone; on the other hand, drawing cartoons is really fucking lonely! I think for people like me, there's nothing noble or workmanlike about comics. Comics for me are just a cry for help. I started drawing comics to prove that I existed; to communicate with people that otherwise would never have bothered listening to my dull, petrified stammers. For whatever reason, comics-speak is the only language my brain is fluent in. It's how I think -- which is an immense fucking burden, since it's impossible to translate that into any other type of communication. But every time I'm offered a quicker, easier, less labor-intensive route to gratification or validation -- like a relationship -- I go and ditch comics again. Hopefully that's going to change someday; but most likely I'll just die unhappy and alone under a pile of inked pages, like most "indie" cartoonists -- that is, if I'm lucky!

SB: Well, we’ve all got Jack Kirby to look to on that -- he had a full life and drew a monstrous amount of amazing comics. It’s possible to do both, but that’s not an easy path to find. You've been on the road most, if not all, of your adult life thus far. Now you're plugged into a new comics community, the new one evolving around CCS. It’s something pretty unique, really, unlike anything I’ve experienced since the Kubert School days. How did you get involved with CCS -- the Fellowship (no Tolkien reference intended) -- and has this been feeding you creatively?

GABBY: I know that there's a legitimate selection process and everything, but I'm pretty sure that the main reason I got the CCS Fellowship was because I went skinny-dipping with Robyn Chapman at the San Diego Comics Con a couple years ago. Now I realize Robyn's rationale: White River Junction can be a pretty boring place, and we need to import as many people as we can get who have poor impulse control. I'm sure it also helps that I was able to drive my entire house here; otherwise I imagine it would be really hard to drop everything and move up into the wilds of Vermont for a year. But basically she told me to apply for the Fellowship a couple cons ago, and I did, and James Sturm liked my stuff, and so the next thing I knew I was stocking up my housetruck with rancid oil to make the cross-country trip from Oregon to Vermont.

Now that the Fellowship's over it's becoming obvious that I was pretty lucky to have done it. Like you say, there's a real comics community up here, which is something that's really rare and special, especially for cartoonists, who spend so much of their time alone and underappreciated. It's like being at a comics convention every day... well maybe not that exciting. But I've definitely learned more about comics and cartooning life in the past year than I have in the other 33 -- primarily from you, actually! And most of it has been pretty much just by accident, because I happened to be in the same room while something cool was going on.

I've met some really cool people here, and feel like we've got an awesome (if dysfunctional) family going on. Everyone's really eager to help each other out, share information, critique each other's work, buy each other beer, and generally make life up here more bearable. It's not like some art schools, where the students can be really antagonistic and catty and mean to each other. I'm really looking forward to seeing what happens to the new CCS students in their second year. I'm actually, against all sanity and good judgment, even thinking of sticking around for another year myself, to watch the second-year kids graduate.

SB: Do it!

GABBY: I might not have a choice -- I’m too broke to get my house out of the driveway!

Being here has definitely been feeding me creatively -- there's so many other cartoonists to swipe from! I've been ripping off [student] Joe Lambert's style more than anyone realizes, and he's only like 22 years old. Everyone's gotten way better at drawing cartoons since they got to the school, and I think a big reason for that, other than the formal education, is all the time we spend together. Oh, and the ping pong. The intensive ping-pong training has been invaluable to my development as a cartoonist and a human being.

Steven Wright's house key could start this house and drive it around... Gabby's home away from, uh, home, a biodiesel wonder!

SB: OK, other than ripping off Joe and ping pong, let’s get to brass tacks: how has CCS affected or altered your comics work, or your orientation to it?

GABBY: Being at CCS has definitely helped me take comics more seriously -- or at least made me feel like it's OK for me to do so, without getting laughed at. It's also nice to be around the younger cartoonists -- most of whom draw better than me. It's been really reinvigorating, like when they bring kittens to nursing homes. It feels good to have a bunch of people who care about comics collected in the same geographic location. I'm really worried about what life's going to be like back in the real world, where nobody gives a crap about my little comics.

At the same time, traveling has really helped me make better comics. I think it's a good idea to get out in the world and force yourself to out of comfortable mindsets and habits. That sounds obvious, but I know so many comic-book people who have no idea there is anything to life beyond their sheltered little menagerie of Comics Journal flame wars and pop-culture references. And there is no better way to ensure that your comics will eternally suck than allowing yourself to remain in an exclusive, insular group that always validates your work, no matter how derivative or mediocre it is. Cartoonists need to be kicked in the ass a lot more than most people.

So traveling has helped a lot for me in that regard -- it shows me exactly how little my private interests, concerns and beliefs really matter to the rest of the world; it reminds me that nobody outside of this clique knows or cares what the hell an "Ignatz Award" is. Most importantly, it reminds me to draw for a wider audience than just other indie-comics geeks. It's so easy to fall into a rut of ideology, not just with comics but with anything -- I've found this especially true with political activists -- where you think all that needs to happen for the whole world to be better is for everyone to shut up and be more like you. When I was vegan I totally forgot that the rest of the world gave zero shit about my dietary dogma. It was easy to forget because I surrounded myself with other vegans, or at least with people who knew what the word "vegan" even meant; and so eventually I stopped even questioning the legitimacy of our convictions. And that's how people go crazy, no matter how clever or persuasive their theories are. It's never a bad thing to keep throwing all your cherished theories and assumptions against the cold, hard wall of reality to find out what sticks.

Crap, I don't think that had anything to do with your question. Um, yeah, CCS has been great. I'm sad to leave. The industrial paper-cutter alone made it worth the trip.

SB: So, in the big life journey, do you feel part of a community at last? I mean, I feel you’re a big part of what CCS is right now, if nothing else --

GABBY: Yeah, very much. Especially with "my" class, the second-year kids; a lot of us are really supportive of each other's efforts, and make a point of helping each other to do better, and everyone seems to have improved so much over the year because of it -- me included. There's a bit of healthy competition too, which is great for motivation. There's some people here who think a whole lot about comics, and I get to drink beer and talk with them like every week. I'm sure it helps that there is literally nothing else to do up here than sit around and talk and draw, at least during the winter. And now that it's summer we all get to go play kickball together. I love the kids here (including you, Steve!), and I'm really excited to see what the new class will be like.

SB: Huh, so I'm a kid, eh? What or who are you reading these days -- in terms of book, comics?

GABBY: Sadly, I have been reading a lot less non-comics books this year -- although I did finally get around to reading Don DeLillo's White Noise a few months ago... that would make a great comic book!

Being at CCS has exposed me to a lot of new great foreign comics -- I really flipped over European cartoonist Christophe Blain, just for the gorgeousness of his drawings, and how easy and casual they the story reads. And when the school went up to Montreal a few weeks ago I found a ton of really incredible-looking French-language comics by cartoonists I'd never heard of before and no one in the US has ever heard of, since they've never been translated into English.

Although I'm probably forgetting a lot of people, I am eagerly anticipating new stuff from Dan Zettwoch, Aaron Renier, Sammy Harkham and Kaz Strzepek. And I've picked up a lot of great stuff at cons lately, too -- Elanor Davis, Drew Weing, Matt Bernier, Chris Wright, and Nate Beatty are all people I wish would put out even more comics, and get more recognition (and money!) for them. And that big King-Cat Collection that just came out was a really great dose of nostalgia -- although it also made me really glad that people aren't doing so many of those "dream" comics anymore.

And, mark my fucking words, people will be going apeshit over Laura Park once her comics start coming out.

Photo: Gabby, CCS Guest Lecturer, May, 2007; photo by Joe Lambert.

SB: So, about your own comics -- what's the plan with Monsters? What's the scope of this project at this point?

GABBY: Agh, I'm not really sure yet... to be honest all I want now is to just finish it as soon as possible, before I piss too many more people off or I die or something. It should be going on for at least three more issues -- but frankly I'm not sure. Since it's going to be pretty much pure autobio from issue three on, I keep having to add on different endings and footnotes every few months, every time I get a new test or find out something new about herpes.

Just last week I read that having herpes might actually protect people against the bubonic plague.

And I want to include all this stuff that I find out about herpes, but really at this point there's so much to still be learned about it that I could just go on forever, way past any sane reader's capacity to care. So hopefully I'll rein it in to just a few more big comic books -- and then it'll be published as a book, probably by a very new comics publisher called Secret Acres. So Monsters has already got a little home, once it's all done.

SB: Any other projects you care to discuss?

GABBY: To procrastinate on drawing the rest of Monsters, I've been drawing a few things for some really cool anthologies coming out. Julia Wertz (of Fart Party fame) is getting a bunch of great cartoonists to illustrate Craigslist "Missed Connections" ads -- that should be out sometime in early 2008. And some CCS students are putting together an oversized anthology called Sundays, which I'm drawing my largest pages ever for -- we should have that ready for the MoCCA in just a month from now!

Also, when my roommates aren't home I've been trying to teach myself how to play the fiddle. So if anyone out there wants to give me any pointers...

SB: Bring ‘em on, folks, if you’ve got ‘em. Thanks, Gabby, and thanks for the considerable time you poured into this interview -- much appreciated!

____________________

You can find Gabby’s currently in-print comics and minis here, along with other excellent work from the CCS graduates and students.

That concludes our first marathon interview; hope you enjoyed it. There will be more to follow from other folks, including more cartoonists and fellow CCSers.

Have a good weekend, one and all -- I’ll be posting between now and Monday, but if I don’t see you here ‘till then, have a great one.

CCS News & Graduation Pix

Some week-after-graduation Center for Cartoon Studies news, links and pix:

* CCS will be at MoCCA this year once again (I won't; my convention days/daze be over). Lots of amazing comics this year from both classes, and a great chance to meet a number of CCS's best, brightest and most mobile. The CCS table will be B5, a prime location near the front door of the first room.

* CCS graduation pix are popping up online at last! The one heading this blog post was clicked by Joe Lambert, catching a sweet view of the CCS graduating class and faculty pose (that's me in the way back, to the right, third cat with the hat). For better shots of yours truly in a monkey suit and, far more important, shots of the event, Mutts creator and graduation keynote speaker Patrick McDonnell, and much more, you'll be relieved to know

Joe just posted some great graduation photos here, along with the two pages he and James Sturm created as the cover to the first CCS graduation 'facebook,'

and Joe posted more pix here. Enjoy!

* The local newspaper coverage was sweet.

Valley News staff writer Sonia Scherr's coverage is here, offering accurate assessments of the speeches offered by Patrick McDonnell and senior Ross Wood Studlar, for those interested.

* My old Brattleboro amigo, Rutland Herald reporter, and Trees & Hills Comic Group co-founder Daniel Barlow popped up at the graduation, too, and Dan, Cat and I enjoyed a chat over some beer after the Saturday festivities were over.

Here's Dan's excellent article in The Rutland Herald on the graduation (which sports one bit of misinformation: I met James Sturm looooong before the Bennington College summit; that is, however, where James and I first seriously discussed my teaching at CCS), and

you might want to check out The Rutland Herald's opinion column on the CCS graduation, too.

* The online comics interview site Indie Spinner Rack has posted their second CCS program,

the interview with James Sturm, and it's a great one -- check it out, here!

(And, on the odd chance you missed prior posts, here's the link to my interview with Indie Spinner Rack.)

That's what I've got this morning.

Have a great Wednesday, one and all...